paizo.com - Forums: Advice: Building an Eldritch Scion Magus w (2024)

As soon as I saw the Eldritch Scion archetype for the magus, I knew that I wanted to build one. The magus class feels much more 'natural' as a spontanious caster.

The issue is that the Eldritch Scion cannot use any of the traditionally good options for the Magus. They cannot use metamagic because spontanious casters use it too slowly. They cannot use Arcana that cost arcane pool points because they need to save those points for activating their bloodline and spellstrikes.

Because this kind of magus is so different from most magus builds, I figured it would be good to come here for advice. The character is about to hit level 3, so I can still make build choices for level 3 and higher.

I choose to go with the arcane bloodrager bloodline for its sweet sweet buffs. Because the very first bloodline power increases the concentration check DCs of nearby casters by 2, I am thinking of going with the following anti-caster build. By having the Arcane Bloodline, Disruptive, and a Distracting (lesser) weapon, I can force casters near me to have a -11 penalty to their concentration checks to cast defensively.

I'm not selecting the Arcana to get Swashbuckler's Precise Strike because there is some question of whether or not it actually works with spell combat.

Kitsune Eldritch Scion
Str 11, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16 (Using Boon for exta +2 stat bonus to Dex)

lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Disruptive Bloodrage
lvl 3: Dervish Dance, Familliar (+4 Init)
lvl 4: +1 dex, Arcane Bloodrage
lvl 5: Step up, Combat Reflexes
lvl 6: Disruptive Arcana
lvl 7: Following Step
lvl 8: +1 dex, Greater Arcane Bloodrage
lvl 9: Spellbreaker Arcana, Step Up and Strike
lvl 11: Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Initiative

So yea... very heavily anti spellcaster build, but thanks to the arcane bloodrage abilities which can give him Displacement and Resist Energy this character should be very effective as a melee combatant as well.

Any thoughts on ways to improve this build, or builds that may be superior for the eldritch scion? I am aware that certain other races (such as humans) might be better for this than a kitsune, but that aspect of the character is already set ;)

I went a different path for mine. Essentially, I wanted to avoid being yet another scimitar wielding magus, so I went Half Elf (Human was another option) for katana proficiency, took a level in Swashbuckler, and picked up Slashing Grace at 3. It was utter dreck at level 1 and 2, but due to having played through two scenarios and a sanctioned module level on a different build, getting to 3 (where the build snaps together) was a relatively simple matter of surviving a single scenario in which I spammed Snowball and Acid Splash.

After the critical opening 3 levels, I opted to advance my Swashbuckler abilities with Extra Panache and Combat Reflexes. I took Close Range as my first arcana for the ability to shorten up my Snowballs for combination with Spellstrike and Spell Combat. Being able to toggle between electricity and cold damage as needed (casting either Snowball or Shocking Grasp) has been fairly nice.

An entire level of Swashbuckler might not be needed in your build, but taking Amateur Swashbuckler for the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed would give you a pretty effective defensive ability and dovetails nicely with your high Cha. I'm not big on familiars, but your mileage may vary.

Lunge is a really nice feat to consider shoehorning in somewhere (late, 9th level or later). I don't recommend stacking Initiative as you have here. Doing so means party buffers go after you, so if you move out, you're going to be excluded from all those tasty buffs. You mitigate this somewhat with your auto self buffs, but being able to glean Haste before activating your eldritch focus lets you grab Displacement with less mental turmoil. I recognize why you did it (gotta get in the caster's face before they cast!) but do recognize it is a double edged sword, so to speak, for characters that aren't casting party buffs or ending the encounter in a single spell.

My build:
Swashbuckler 1 : Weapon Focus and Weapon Proficiency (Ancestral Arms racial trait or bonus human feat)
Magus 1
Magus 2 : Slashing Grace
Magus 3 : Close Range arcana
Magus 4 : Extra Panache
Magus 5 : Combat Reflexes
Magus 6 : Power Attack, Arcane Accuracy arcana
Magus 7
Magus 8 : Lunge
Magus the rest of the way.

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I'm not selecting the Arcana to get Swashbuckler's Precise Strike because there is some question of whether or not it actually works with spell combat.

Don't limit your build just because some people don't know the rules.

The Entire Line of Precise Strike Restrictions wrote:

To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.

Are you attacking with a weapon in your other hand? Are you using a non-buckler shield?

No?

Well it (obviously...) works with Spell Combat then.

Quote:

An entire level of Swashbuckler might not be needed in your build, but taking Amateur Swashbuckler for the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed would give you a pretty effective defensive ability and dovetails nicely with your high Cha. I'm not big on familiars, but your mileage may vary.

No need. Magi can get Opportune Parry and Riposte from an Arcana.

Oh good, they got around to updating the Additional Resources page!

The arcana isn't a bad idea, but taking the Amateur Swashbuckler feat gives you a pool separate from your Eldritch Pool to power your parries. A pool that you can recover points in over the course of adventuring. Given the amount of parrying one typically does, I suspect you'd end up resource starved if you just take the arcana.

Ryzoken wrote:

Oh good, they got around to updating the Additional Resources page!

The arcana isn't a bad idea, but taking the Amateur Swashbuckler feat gives you a pool separate from your Eldritch Pool to power your parries. A pool that you can recover points in over the course of adventuring. Given the amount of parrying one typically does, I suspect you'd end up resource starved if you just take the arcana.

This is the other reason why I'm hesitant about taking Flamboyant Arcana: there is no way I'll have the arcane pool points to actually do dodges and parries! Simply going for it to gain the crazy damage bonus is tempting though.

I like the idea of using the Amateur Swashbuckler feat though. I will have to consider fitting that into my build. I have thought about taking a swashbuckler level, but I don't want to delay the rate that I'll be getting the bloodline powers.

I've been thinking about how this type of magus would use Opportune Parry and Riposte, and there is one issue. This character is already going to be incredibly swift action starved since he'll need to use a swift action every other round to reactivate his bloodline. That on top of weapon enhancement means he'll rarely have the spare actions to use a Riposte. Plus, when he has displacement running all the time, Parries become less valuable.

I guess they would be useful when this character isn't using his bloodline powers for some reason... I'll have to see how often that situation actually occurs before investing the feat.

I just thought of something useful. Since Magus generally just use their metamagic with a single spell (shocking grasp), it might be worthwhile for an Eldritch Scion to use the feat Spontaneous Metafocus so he can use it with metamagic as a standard action.

I would never have thought that such a feat would ever become useful.

It is too bad though, I'm not sure if I'll be able to fit it into my build though since it requires two feats.... I guess I could grab them both at level 11, lol.

Matrix Dragon wrote:

As soon as I saw the Eldritch Scion archetype for the magus, I knew that I wanted to build one. The magus class feels much more 'natural' as a spontanious caster.

The issue is that the Eldritch Scion cannot use any of the traditionally good options for the Magus. They cannot use metamagic because spontanious casters use it too slowly. They cannot use Arcana that cost arcane pool points because they need to save those points for activating their bloodline and spellstrikes.

Because this kind of magus is so different from most magus builds, I figured it would be good to come here for advice. The character is about to hit level 3, so I can still make build choices for level 3 and higher.

I choose to go with the arcane bloodrager bloodline for its sweet sweet buffs. Because the very first bloodline power increases the concentration check DCs of nearby casters by 2, I am thinking of going with the following anti-caster build. By having the Arcane Bloodline, Disruptive, and a Distracting (lesser) weapon, I can force casters near me to have a -11 penalty to their concentration checks to cast defensively.

I'm not selecting the Arcana to get Swashbuckler's Precise Strike because there is some question of whether or not it actually works with spell combat.

Kitsune Eldritch Scion
Str 11, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16 (Using Boon for exta +2 stat bonus to Dex)

lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Disruptive Bloodrage
lvl 3: Dervish Dance, Familliar (+4 Init)
lvl 4: +1 dex, Arcane Bloodrage
lvl 5: Step up, Combat Reflexes
lvl 6: Disruptive Arcana
lvl 7: Following Step
lvl 8: +1 dex, Greater Arcane Bloodrage
lvl 9: Spellbreaker Arcana, Step Up and Strike
lvl 11: Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Initiative

So yea... very heavily anti spellcaster build, but thanks to the arcane bloodrage abilities which can give him Displacement and Resist Energy this character should be very effective as a melee combatant as well.

Any thoughts on ways to improve this build, or builds that may be superior for...

Arcane bloodrager bloodline has some nice benefits. You have the option to have blur or displacement on, so why not pick up moonlight stalker feat (blind-fight & combat expertise prereq). Would give +2 attack/damage rolls anytime you use blur or displacement.

Precise Strike absolutely works with spell combat.

Precise strike: "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler."

Spell combat: "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free....while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand"

Chess Pwn wrote:

The precise strike isn't as clear cut. because you can't use armor spikes, which don't use a hand, and a greatsword, which uses two hands, with Two Weapon Fighting. So since spell combat is like two-weapon fighting with spells it might use up a "hand". Just like how armor spikes uses a "hand"

Armor spikes only "uses" a hand if you attack with them: " You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)"

KnotAguru wrote:

Precise Strike absolutely works with spell combat.

Precise strike: "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler."

Spell combat: "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free....while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand"

I can see the logic on both side of the argument, but this post from Mark Seifter makes it seem like the FAQ on the subject of magus precise strike isn't going to be kind. Especially since Mark was the one in charge of FAQs last I checked, lol.

I'm wary about investing in a feat chain that is probably going to get nerfed, and then I'll have to use prestige to get out of it. If it were a home game it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I can see the logic on both side of the argument, but this post from Mark Seifter makes it seem like the FAQ on the subject of magus precise strike isn't going to be kind. Especially since Mark was the one in charge of FAQs last I checked, lol.

I'm wary about investing in a feat chain that is probably going to get nerfed, and then I'll have to use prestige to get out of it. If it were a home game it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Based on that statement, Mark wouldn't nerf Precise Strike because of a mechanical issue but due to it being overpowered.

KnotAguru wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I can see the logic on both side of the argument, but this post from Mark Seifter makes it seem like the FAQ on the subject of magus precise strike isn't going to be kind. Especially since Mark was the one in charge of FAQs last I checked, lol.

I'm wary about investing in a feat chain that is probably going to get nerfed, and then I'll have to use prestige to get out of it. If it were a home game it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Based on that statement, Mark wouldn't nerf Precise Strike because of a mechanical issue but due to it being overpowered.

This is true. Though, if he goes with the "this arcana doesn't give you the Panache you need to make a Precise Strike" interpretation and that is used the the FAQ, I'll be able to circumvent things by taking a dip into swashbuckler or getting Panache in some other way ;)

BadBird wrote:

I thought the big problem with Precise Strike for the Magus is that the Magus has no Swashbuckler levels to add to their damage. Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed allow a Magus to use pool for panache and pick deeds a Swashbuckler of that level can pick, but they never say you can use your Magus level as your Swashbuckler level. Come to think of it, I'm not sure there's any deed other than Precise Strike where that matters...

If that were true, then another popular deed (Evasive) wouldn't help you out too much either. Under flamboyant arcana (...the wording of the deeds has been altered simply to replace "swashbuckler" with "magus" for convenience and clarity). This should apply to using her magus level as swashbuckler level on other deeds taken via arcane deed. The ACG has a slew of missing info. Hopefully a FAQ comes out soon to clarify all this.

BadBird wrote:

I thought the big problem with Precise Strike for the Magus is that the Magus has no Swashbuckler levels to add to their damage. Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed allow a Magus to use pool for panache and pick deeds a Swashbuckler of that level can pick, but they never say you can use your Magus level as your Swashbuckler level. Come to think of it, I'm not sure there's any deed other than Precise Strike where that matters...

the same wording is used for the cavalier swashbuckler *whatshisname* and he pretty much gets precise strike de facto (no option to choose).

i would assume they wouldn't give him an ability that does 0 damage.

obviously "magus level counts as swashbuckler level" was intended, although nver mentioned...

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I ended up going with Ryzoken's advice and choosing the Close Range arcana at the last moment so that I can spellstrike with the snowball spell. I'm sure that I'll be happy that I took it next time I run into a golem, lol.

Snowball doesn't work with the close range arcana; it specifically says ray spells, which Snowball is not. (The playtest version of this arcana worked with Snowball and other non-ray close range spells, but this was intentionally changed before it went to print.) Right now, the only way to Spell Strike with Snowball would be the Myrmidarch archetype, and even then it's only with a ranged weapon.

Azoriel wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I ended up going with Ryzoken's advice and choosing the Close Range arcana at the last moment so that I can spellstrike with the snowball spell. I'm sure that I'll be happy that I took it next time I run into a golem, lol.

Snowball doesn't work with the close range arcana; it specifically says ray spells, which Snowball is not. (The playtest version of this arcana worked with Snowball and other non-ray close range spells, but this was intentionally changed before it went to print.) Right now, the only way to Spell Strike with Snowball would be the Myrmidarch archetype, and even then it's only with a ranged weapon.

...Well, I just wasted five prestige points, since I need to respec out of this now.

Crap. That... is really annoying. Also, sorry I mislead ya on that. Now I need to figure out what my magus is going to use Close Range for... Guess I'll be swapping Acid Splash over to Ray of Frost for starters...

As to the issue with Opportune Parry and Riposte vis a vis Swift action economy: don't riposte. You're really taking the deed for access to the parries, which eat up your Attacks of Opportunity, not your Immediate Actions. The riposte, while nice, isn't a huge benefit because your damage relies heavily on spellstrikes.

Ryzoken wrote:

I wouldn't say it's useless per se. I mean, eventually you can start Spellstriking Enervation with Close Range if you take Spell Blending to get it on your list.

Hmmm, yea, a crit on enervation can definately be pretty nasty. In PFS though you'd only get two levels out of it though, so I don't think I'm going to go for that build.